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New NAVTEX Areas (Luettu 5749 kertaa)
OH5YW
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Viestejä: 3009
New NAVTEX Areas
30.12.10 - 18:21:59
 
Kaikki eivät seuraa noita postilistoja, kokosin sieltä aiheeseen liittyviä posteja tähän yhteen ketjuun
 
---------------------
 
The new areas are due to become 'officially' fully operational in June 2011
- that is if the IMO and IHO don't go and change things yet again, at the
most the areas are subject to tests and may not be regular or reliable.
 
There should be 22 Navareas active after that date, and I have no plans to
change any of my databases until the 'official' Notices to Mariners are
published showing all the changes, otherwise it will all get far too
confusing.
I'm sure that the REU etc. will also change its database at that time
to reflect
the situation (though how this will affect logs from prior to that
date I wouldn't
like to say!), it's probably going to get a bit confusing though with
some people
already using the newer Navareas for some logs!Hymiö
 
----------------------------
 
Hear,hear!
For Yand, I will surely wait until the dust has settled.
Waiting should pose no big problems. After all, the station names remain the
same.
 
 
For Yand, the only solution is to rebuild the log database, i.e. change the
logged navarea's to reflect the new situation. I have yet to look into the gory
details, but I guess writing a standalone rebuilding app. will be the cleanest
soultion.
 
73 - Dirk
-----------------------------
Hi Dirk,
 
why would you have to rebuild the DB?
 
To my mind it's more or less like the DXCC countries in amateur radio: the old loggings (old QSOs) are valid up to the last day before the change is in effect, and the new loggings (new QSOs)  are valid from that day on. So to me a rebuild is not only unnecessary, but in fact kind of "forbidden", because it would change the logs to reflect a situation that was not valid when the logging was done.
 
Just my opinion... Pelästynyt)
 
73s de Joerg, DL6ZBN
----------------------
Hi Jörg,
 
That's a possible option. But..my concern is that searching or filtering the log
database will become very confusing to a Yand user. Say you wish to see only the
records for Arkhangelsk, what is Yand supposed to show AFTER the new navareas
are applied?
 
If the user selects 17F, only old loggings will be shown; selecting
the new 20F will show only show recent loggings. Moreover, the current navarea
17 (polar) will be assigned to NW-Canada in the new scheme.
 
A similar situation applies to Norwegian stations currently in navarea 1, to
become 19 in the new scheme. A station can have only 1 unique ID-letter/navarea
combination, otherwise chaos will follow.
 
It's a bit of a mess...
 
 
Cheers - Dirk
---------------------------
Hi Dirk,
 
Another complication will be caused if the Russians get their way and
a Navarea XXII is created covering the Caspian Sea, the whole thing will
get very messy, and I think you are quite right that a complete new start
is often the easiest way to deal with these problems.
 
One of the reasons I stopped including the REU/RNA areas in my list was
because it got far too confusing if I made a change and the REU didn't,
users were then using codes that may not have matched up to the ones
shown in there and that were in effect created by me.
 
Hopefully once all these changes are out of the way things will settle
down for many years to come, and we won't have to go through any changes
as radical as these ever again.
 
Alan.
------------------------
Hi All,
 
Just to clarify why the situation with these new navareas is so confusing
at the moment, according to the Canadian Coastguard site the tests which
were carried out from Iqaluit, which only operates between June and November
when the polar regions are navigable, were made on 8416.5 kHz using NBDP,
rather than on 518 kHz.
 
I don't know if anyone heard any of these tests, or if this frequency will
be used again next June, or if there will be new transmitters operating on
518 as yet, but below are some of the messages that they sent in these tests:
 
NAVAREA XVII 49/2010
 
CANADA IQALUIT
IQALUIT MCTS HF NBDP SCHEDULED BROADCASTS ON 8416.5KHZ MODE F1B BEGINNING
JULY 1, 2010 AT 0330UTC AND 1530UTC FOR WARNINGS AND WEATHER FORECASTS FOR
NAVAREAS AND METAREAS XVII AND XVIII.
 
 
NAVAREA XVIII 53/2010
 
CANADA IQALUIT
1. IQALUIT MCTS HF NBDP SCHEDULED BROADCASTS ON 8416.5KHZ MODE F1B BEGINNING
JULY 1, 2010 AT 0330UTC AND 1530UTC FOR WARNINGS AND WEATHER FORECASTS FOR
NAVAREAS AND METAREAS XVII AND XVIII.
2. CANCEL NAVAREA XVIII 16/10
 
The Danes are also planning to build a new station in Greenland at Upernavik,
which will probably be in Navarea XVIII with Nuuk, no doubt we will see a lot
more movement in the early part of the next year, though progress may well
depend on the economic situation in many of these countries and whether funds
are still available.
 
 
Things are just as confusing in the Russia areas, where one of the
few operational
station in the new areas is at Tiksi, this is currently providing very limited
coverage to both Navareas XX and XXI - now how would we report that
in the REU?Hymiö
 
 
Like I said before, better to wait for 'official' notices to be posted before
including them or things will very quickly get even more confusing.
If the polar
waters are all frozen and no sea paths exist in the winter months
then many of the
new broadcasts could be seasonal like Iqualuit anyway.
 
 
73 for now, Alan.
Siirry sivun alkuun
 
 

Perseus
Several LWOGs
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OH5YW
Pääkäyttäjä
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NDB-listener

Viestejä: 3009
Re: New NAVTEX Areas
Vastaus #1 - 31.12.10 - 07:04:34
 
Hi Jörg, Alan, All
 
I've just been staring at Bill Hepburn's listing for half an hour and have come to the conclusion that it is not as worse as previously thought.
 
1/
In fact there are only 5 existing stations for which the navarea is changing:
 
1A Svalbard => 19A
1B Bodo => 19B
1V Vardo => 19V
17F Archangelsk => 20F
17C Murmansk => 20C
 
2/
All NEW navareas (10-14-17-18-21)  have NO stations.
No stations are currently planned, except for Tiksi,RU  in navarea 21 which has status "planned". (This is IHO jargon for : it will take a few more years to become active)
IOW, no problem for the new zones. And when new stations become active, these can be handled with a standard Yand station database update.
 
3/
Frankly, I don't see the value of keeping old loggings untouched. After all, only the navarea will be changed, not the station name nor the ID-letter.  It took me less than half an hour to cobble together a simple standalone program  to change Archangelsk from 17F to 20F. For a database containing 30.000+ records , this took 4..5 seconds. In another hour or so, something more user friendly could be written to handle all 5 stations above. Piece of cake.
 
4/
A navarea/ID-letter combination is NOT unique; see 3W La Garde/3W Astrakhan and 4H Prescott/4H Curacao and perhaps a few other I forgot. It's a mess but we' ll have to live with it.
 
5/
I have no idea how/when Martin Francis is going to handle this for the RNA/REU database.
I think we should coordinate with him and wait until the dust has settled there, before we make the switch here. Alan?
 
6/
I'm open to all alternative suggestions. These are just ideas, not decisions!
Siirry sivun alkuun
 
 

Perseus
Several LWOGs
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OH5YW
Pääkäyttäjä
*****


NDB-listener

Viestejä: 3009
Re: New NAVTEX Areas
Vastaus #2 - 31.12.10 - 12:28:45
 
Hi Dirk,
 
I have the following listed as likely changes, but the great unknown
here is what frequency many of them will be using, because some IMO
documents suggest that 4209.5 may be used rather than 490 or 518 due
to the large areas involved. It's interesting that a number of the
tests carried out so far have been on 8414.5 & 12577 kHz. I guess
another complication is the Geomagnetic Field, which will likely
cause very high levels of D layer absorption, especially at 518 and
may limit the range there even further, especially around solar
maximum.
 
I have a document that says "It is expected that NBDP coverage for
the western portion of Navarea XVII will be provided by the United
States from facilities currently carrying HF NBDP Maritime Safety
Information Service." The maps also show the 8 & 12 MHz frequencies
listed for the NBDP service, so it may not be NAVTEX as we know it
all all.
 
Tiksi in Russia may use 4209.5 initially, though the long term plan
is for 8 new NAVTEX stations in the Russian areas, but again the
frequencies could be 4 MHz and not 518 kHz, a lot will depend on
the size of the coverage areas required I guess.
 
Another document says that Danish coastal warnings would be transmitted
by HF NAVTEX on 4209.5 kHz from Svalbard in slot [G] for Navarea XIX.
 
The more I find out the less I know, that's why I prefer to wait for
'official' Notices before including any of this stuff!Hymiö
 
Kodiak                    [X]      ALS      Alaska          XVII
 
Iqaluit C.G.R./VFF, NT [S]      CAN      Canada          XVIII
Iqaluit C.G.R./VFF, NT [T]      CAN      Canada          XVIII
Nuuk (Kook Island)      [W]      GRL      Greenland        XVIII
Upernavik?                        GRL      Greenland        XVIII
                                                                                                 
Svalbard Radio (#2)     [A]      SVB      Svalbard         XIX
Bodø Radio               [B]      NOR      Norway           XIX
Vardø Radio (#2)         [V]     NOR      Norway          XIX
                                                                                                 
Murmansk                 [C]      RUS      Russia          XX
Arkhangelsk              [F]      RUS      Russia          XX
Dikson                    [M]      RSE      Russia          XX
Mys Sterlegova           [N]      RSE      Russia          XX
Ostrova Andreja [O]      RSE      Russia           XX
Ostrov Bol'soj Begiev   [P]      RSE      Russia           XX
Anderma                   RSE      Russia           XX
                                                                                                 
Beringovskiy             [E]      RSE      Russia          XXI
Provideniya              [F]      RSE      Russia          XXI
Tiksi                              RSE      Russia           XXI

 
 
> 4/
> A navarea/ID-letter combination is NOT unique; see 3W La Garde/3W Astrakhan and 4H Prescott/4H Curacao and perhaps a few other I forgot. It's a mess but we' ll have to live with it.
 
 
I just work on the principle that if you've logged something in area
III in slot [A] then in the REU it will be $3A, and if the number
occurs more than once it will still have a different station name
so it is easy to tell which one it is.
 
 
> 5/
> I have no idea how/when Martin Francis is going to handle this for the RNA/REU database.
> I think we should coordinate with him and wait until the dust has settled there, before we make the switch here. Alan?  
 
 
Yes, I think we need more 'official' confirmation if what is going to
happen before asking for any changes, otherwise it will get very confusing
for database users.
 
There are no easy answers here that's for sure, any changeover period is
always complicated, the DGPS Bandplan was changed in 2001 and I had to
start my logs all over again to make sense of them all.
 
Wonder if we can send one of our own representatives to any future IMO
meetings just to keep us informed of what is really going on?Hymiö
 
 
73 for now, Alan.
Siirry sivun alkuun
 
 

Perseus
Several LWOGs
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TSM
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Beaconist  OH1TSM

Viestejä: 387
Re: New NAVTEX Areas
Vastaus #3 - 30.01.11 - 12:02:37
 
Mm. tästä Karin löytämästä linkistä http://weather.gmdss.org/metareas.html näkee uuden aluejaon mukaisen kartan.
Metarea lienee sama kuin Nawarea...
 
Alueita on siis 22 kpl.
 
Tuossa kartassa on alueita 21 kpl eli muutoksia on tehty jo nyt ?
Helppoa kuin heinänteko.
 
Teijo
Siirry sivun alkuun
 
 

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